How have our favorite TV shows impacted our views of gender and of ourselves? This week, we’re graced by illustrious media scholar and psychologist Soraya Giaccardi to help Remoy and Samantha look back on how their fave, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, shaped their own views. Tune in!
This week, we’re joined by media scholar and psychologist Soraya Giaccardi. She shares her work analyzing gender depictions in TV and helps Remoy and Samantha psychoanalyze their relationship to a TV classic and one of their faves, “The Fresh Prince of Bel Air.”
Referenced in this episode:
COMPANION PIECES:
240718_FreshPrince_Transcript
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Remoy Philip: It's your boy, Remoy George Phillip, the first,
Samantha Nzessi: and I'm Samantha Nzessi.
Remoy Philip: This is MASKulinity.
Samantha Nzessi: The show that investigates the performance of masculinity in the world today. And you know, we spell it with a hard K.
Remoy Philip: So, Samantha.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, Remoy?
Remoy Philip: I here's what I need you to do. I need you to put your memory hat on.
Samantha Nzessi: Remoy, it's post COVID. Nobody
Remoy Philip: And?
Samantha Nzessi: Memory doesn't really exist anymore. We had a blip, remember? Lasted four years. It's ongoing.
Remoy Philip: Let's do that. Let's try to build some of it back. Like OK, let's do this. Now, excluding our last episode, the military one we just did, what do the three episodes before that have in common?
Samantha Nzessi: Listen, you love a pop quiz. I don't, I...
Remoy Philip: I mean, obviously in another universe,
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maybe like our guest today, I was like a college professor or at best, a third grade teacher.
Samantha Nzessi: A hardass third grade teacher. Let's go. I mean, too literati for the third graders. Remoy, no.
Remoy Philip: And then, like, obviously that means you're the third grader here, but that's fine.
Samantha Nzessi: Wow. Anyways. OK. So before military, I think Oh yeah. OK. Yeah. We went back and revisited our episode on being a trans person in immigrant family.
That was with D'Lo. Shout out to D'Lo.
Remoy Philip: A+, got it. Nice.
Samantha Nzessi: Before that, all right. So that's you and Beto. You're a wrestling brother, you know,
Remoy Philip: [WRESTLER VOICE] Yeah.
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, this is the best, exactly. You actually showing anything besides stoicism, all of the multitudes and stuff in our wrestling episodes. It was amazing. Yes.
Remoy Philip: You're welcome. Everybody's welcome. Great.
Samantha Nzessi: [LAUGHS] and I guess
Remoy Philip: I believe in you. You got this. I believe in you.
Samantha Nzessi: OK, I guess OK. So we're kind hardass teacher. I'll take it. I'll take it. Yeah.
Remoy Philip: You're welcome. Multitudes. Like you said, multitudes, Samantha, we all of me. I got multitudes.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, yeah, obviously. Oh, my God.
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The Matriarchy Episode with the illustrious Izzy Chan. How could I forget? Amazing.
Remoy Philip: Hell yeah. Nailed it. Never doubted you one bit.
Samantha Nzessi: Did you not? All right. We'll just say that. We'll just go with that. [LAUGHTER]
Remoy Philip: OK. Now for the follow-up question. Let's go.
Samantha Nzessi: OK. So we're committing to the hardass again. OK. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool.
Remoy Philip: What do all three of those episodes have in common?
Samantha Nzessi: I mean, they're all dope. They talk about amazing things. They all had me on them. I'm just kidding. They all had both of us on them. I don't know, masculinity, culture...
Remoy Philip: Facts.
Samantha Nzessi: ...so to speak.
Remoy Philip: You know, that's a fair, good question. But the answer is All of them have connections to TV. Oh, wrestling. Obviously, D'Lo is an actor, TV actor, and Izzy is working on a documentary series about matriarchies that will inevitably at some point be on the TV.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes. You know, actually, I wouldn't even exclude The Military Episode from that. Right? Because I feel like one thing that we definitely chopped it up about is military representations on screen
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and how they like basically focus on one part of like, you know, masculinity, which is stoicism, and they don't focus on, you know, the other part, which is suffering and sadness. But anyway, I digress. Listen to the episode, guys.
Remoy Philip: And propaganda in the state and Hollywood colluding. I'm never going to let that go.
Samantha Nzessi: Exactly. Marvel, what the fuck? Anyway, yeah.
Remoy Philip: So today, I thought we'd look a little bit closer at our relationship between television and gender.
Samantha Nzessi: Well, actually, that makes sense because today our guest is a media scholar, a media psychologist. Amazing. Soraya Giaccardi, welcome. So happy to have you.
Soraya Giaccardi: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I could, you know, always happy to have an opportunity to talk media and to talk gender. So, thrilled to be here.
Remoy Philip: Well, Soraya, like Samantha said, to stick to this bit, if you will, maybe in your best TV presenter voice, or maybe your best professorial voice, tell our listeners what they're going to hear today.
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Soraya Giaccardi: OK, so I'm probably gonna go with the professorial voice. I think that would come a little bit more natural than the TV announcer. But today we're going to be learning about how media and special is-- specifically television can really shape our attitudes and our beliefs on our expectations around gender, but specifically around masculinity, about what it means to be a boy, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a man in the context of romantic relationships, etc. So we're gonna really dive into those topics and hopefully have a really great conversation.
Remoy Philip: All of that and a little bit of West Philadelphia born and raised. That's all after this break.
AD BREAK: Curious about Next Gen Men? We're a small part of a much larger movement to undefine masculinity for a brighter future. Our mission is clear: Empower the next generation to use their curiosity, empathy,
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and courage to build a more equitable world. Join the Next Gen Men community as we learn and unlearn together.
We are here to support boys and men to break free from limiting stereotypes. We're not just an organization, we're a catalyst for re-imagining masculinity and fostering inclusivity. We're here to help open up possibilities for what men and boys can be. Explore the world of NextGen Men at nextgenmen.ca and join the community to make a difference.
Next Gen Men. Shaping tomorrow's leaders one step at a time. Join us and help undefine masculinity and empower the next generation of men to lead with empathy and courage.
Remoy Philip: Samantha.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, Remoy?
Remoy Philip: We have a guest today that I think you'll really be into. A media psychologist, maybe.
Samantha Nzessi: Very exciting, actually. I feel like I should have had one of those my whole life, so...
Remoy Philip: You and me both, and we're actually going to get in today. But Soraya Giaccardi, welcome.
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Soraya Giaccardi: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to chat all things media and masculinity.
Remoy Philip: Ooh, we're going to get into it. Media psychology. Actually, I'd like to take a shot at diagnosing all of us here first. How about that?
Soraya Giaccardi: Let's go for it.
Samantha Nzessi: Should that be Soraya? I don't know if that should be you. I don't know if that should be you.
Remoy Philip: Well, just humor me here. Like, we all grew up kind of, more or less, around the same time, I'd presume and one particular form of media raised us. Any guesses as to what that could be?
Samantha Nzessi: Soraya, you want to take this? I feel like you know.
Soraya Giaccardi: I would think television, for our generation. Television, for sure.
Remoy Philip: Nailed it. I mean, just nailed it. But it was like, here's the thing. It was actually just one television, right? Maybe, maybe two. Two. Like, how many of those giant square heavy boxes with a screen did you all have in your homes growing up?
Samantha Nzessi: I mean, just the one. I had like-- We had smaller ones, but the big one was that was in the living room.
Soraya Giaccardi: Yeah. We had one big one in the living room,
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and then I remember I saved up all the money that I was gifted for my, you know, Catholic confirmation or something like that. And I saved that money to buy my own television for my room. And it was, again, one of those giant big-block televisions. But I I was dedicated to getting my own [LAUGHS]
Samantha Nzessi: That's dedication.
Remoy Philip: I mean, congratulations to you for saving money and then using it on TV because I, I would have wanted that myself, but I couldn't do it.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, yeah.
Remoy Philip: But now, like in 2024, like we don't, we don't need an actual TV. I watch shows on my computer mostly, sometimes on my phone. I can be watching on the bus, in my bed, literally wherever, whenever.
Samantha Nzessi: Wait, so don't tell us that you're watching Law and Order in the shower, Remoy. Why? I mean, maybe you should be the one getting psychoanalyzed, which actually, yes, you definitely should. [REMOY LAUGHS] I mean, I mean that with love. I mean, that with love.
Remoy Philip: I feel it. I surely do. But like, there's another thing, right? Like, episodes came and went, and like, this was so hard for me to fathom as a child that there was like a schedule, but then once I realized, they happened, like, once.
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They aired once. Maybe syndication happens and you'd get it again, but if you missed it that first time, you more or less missed it. Do you guys remember that?
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah.
Soraya Giaccardi: I absolutely do. I remember every Sunday, I'd go through the Sunday paper and they had the TV guide in there that had the schedule for the whole week. And I'd go through all the channels and I'd go through the schedule and I'd circle the things that I wanted to catch. And if you missed it, you missed it. [LAUGHS]
Remoy Philip: It was such like disheartening if you like actual missed it. TV kind of was like appointment viewing. Like if you wanted to watch a show, you had to plan to watch it. Like you talked about, and it was only on one of the limited TVs you had access to. Access to. Yeah.
Samantha Nzessi: Well, so yeah, but like, and?
Remoy Philip: And like, I'm just like, well. Like, there's gotta be some residual effects. Mm. And like...
Samantha Nzessi: I mean, what do you mean? Like...
Remoy Philip: Well, yeah, I like, I think it's like hypothesizing like that, because these shows back in the day only have like one more or less scheduled release time, they kind of had to reach a large audience
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with that little slot of time. So that kind of like maybe like influenced their decision making on what their episodes were.
Samantha Nzessi: OK, I mean, I think you're onto something. Go ahead and say more, Mr. Literati.
Remoy Philip: [CHUCKLES] Sure. Funny, funny, funny, funny. Well, I think that means like writers, producers, networks had to make the most entertaining episodes that would have the best opportunity to reach the largest amount of viewers at once, like even in one home.
Samantha Nzessi: OK, like. What's an example of that?
Remoy Philip: I think like family sitcoms. Those were huge for us growing up, I'd say, and were very successful because they could get the whole family around the TV and make everyone more or less laugh. Does that make sense or does that track Soraya?
Soraya Giaccardi: That absolutely makes sense. You know, that's one of the things that we discuss all the time in our research is, you know back in the day, right, exactly like you said, there was far less content. So the content that was out there had to be very popular. It had to be enjoyable by all. Today there's just so many options.
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So many different niches and so many different places where you can build an audience that it's really quite a different experience. And from a media psychology standpoint, there's all sorts of questions-- research questions that we have about how does the impact of entertainment, how does it change when you're watching something like once a week, slowly over many years versus binging, you know, eight seasons and in one day, right? Or in a couple of days. All sorts of unanswered questions about how that's going to play a role in how media shapes our lives
Samantha Nzessi: And I just want to shout you out right now, Soraya, because that term "cultivation theory," basically just like defines my whole life. And I now realize that basically my whole femininity is based on episodes of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, so... Just kidding. It's hyperbolic, but a little bit, like a tiny bit. At least 15%.
Soraya Giaccardi: I love that.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, I mean, Fresh Prince had a huge effect on me, too. If I remember correctly, like,
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I think it was like Monday night's new episodes would drop during the season, and I would be like, it's eight or nine years old. I was living with my mom. We had this small two-bedroom apartment, and this like TV was like the fireplace that would like-- We could sit together and like watch silently and laugh together, me with my little Coke bottle glasses and you know, it's just...
Samantha Nzessi: So cute.
Soraya Giaccardi: You know, we grew up watching Fresh Prince and my little brother was particularly obsessed with the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, and he begged my mom to get him a DVD set of the Fresh Prince, you know, when he was little. But my, you know, we are, you know, English is our second language. We moved here from Mexico. There was a mistranslation when he asked my mom for a DVD set of you know, the Fresh Prince of Bel Air and she comes to me and she's like, I can't find this DVD of the First Prince of Ballet. What is it? I'm like, OK, I'll help you out there. [LAUGHTER]
Remoy Philip: That's cute.
Samantha Nzessi: I love that. I mean, it's wild actually thinking about it because I think about my brothers and I feel like they were also
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really impacted by the Fresh Prince, you know? So it's like, I just have to wonder what effects like that show had on little Coke-bottled-glasses Remoy. Like, you've got to tell me. And me too, actually.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, like I think we should actually totally get into that when we have the time. But let's save that for later in the episode and start with the effects TV can have, like it did on us when we were kids.
Samantha Nzessi: I mean, shouldn't we just do that now?
Remoy Philip: Well, we will, but like Soraya actually worked on this paper and I think we should talk through that more to, like, ground us up front a little more. Like, this paper was published in 2020 by the Geena Davis Institute. It's titled, "If He Can See It, Will He Be It? Representations of Masculinity in Boys Television."
Samantha Nzessi: Wow. First of all, shout-out to the Geena Davis Institute because they did that seminal study of, like, figuring out how much women actually spoke and realized that women were literally not speaking in movies. And so, I mean, I just love to know more about how that report came about, Soraya, and yeah, what it is.
Soraya Giaccardi: So that particular report came about through, you know,
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when I was at the Geena Davis Institute, when we had this terrific relationship with Equimundo, and Equimundo is one of my favorite organizations out there, you know, working on promoting healthy boyhood and healthy manhood, and really it was our-- our relationship with them and our collaboration with them that sparked this report.
So, Equimundo had been doing a lot of work around, you know, measuring and assessing how boys and men around the world, right, are, are experiencing manhood. And we, at the Geena Davis Institute, had been doing a lot of work tracking how gender shows up on screen. So you know, it was just this perfect opportunity to collaborate.
Equimundo had not done media research before. So it was an opportunity for them to start looking at, you know, some of the very things that they've been studying, but on screen. And it was a wonderful collaboration. It was funded by the Kering Foundation. And since then, you know, both, you know, Equimundo and Geena Davis Institute have gone on to publish quite a bit more research on, you know,
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men and boys in media and masculinity. And so I think it really-- It was a really fruitful collaboration.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, there's some really fascinating work and research, and particularly, insights that come out of this that I hope to talk through.
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, I mean, I really do think that there should be like a lot more information just like being freely given out about the way the TV impacts us, because I feel like we really do need to be talking about it when it comes to like intersocial relationships and also relationship with the self.
Remoy Philip: Well, let's start with some insights. Here's one from the top that actually, I think, may surprise you.
Samantha Nzessi: OK. Challenge accepted. Hit me.
Remoy Philip: OK. So you know how there's always this talk between us two, especially of like gender disparity. Like, there's this large percentage of men in places of leadership, et cetera, et cetera, compared to like, more or less the paltry position women and other genders take.
Samantha Nzessi: OK. Say more about that. Also, amazing word choice. Paltry, love it.
Remoy Philip: Thank you. Thank you. With that in mind,
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what do you think the percentage were between men and women playing leading characters in the most popular boys' TV shows?
Samantha Nzessi: I mean, it's a boys' TV show, so I'm gonna go with-- I mean, I'm going to go with like 75, 25. Like leading, right? Leading.
Remoy Philip: Yeah.
Samantha Nzessi: OK. Yeah.
Remoy Philip: That's-- You know, it's a really good guess. And I would assume the same. And I think a lot of people would, but it's actually pretty close. Like as per this report, leading characters are 49.6 % female, so...
Samantha Nzessi: Oh!
Remoy Philip: That means male representation is just a hair more, with 50. 4%.
Samantha Nzessi: That is, like, very surprising. And it's like surprisingly equal. So Soraya, like, I'm wondering what kind of shows these are and what age ranges are these boys?
Soraya Giaccardi: Absolutely. So you were not the only one surprised by that. The shows that we looked at-- so we used Nielsen ratings to identify the top 25 shows that were being watched by boys who are ages 7 to 13.
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And one of the interesting things about this finding is that there often is this assumption that boys are not going to be interested in watching content that features girls prominently. And again, we were sampling specifically content that is already popular among boys -- top 25 programs -- and so it was really interesting to see that boys are not actually turning away from content that features girls.
We have seen in the last, you know, decade or so a lot of progress when it comes to, you know, relative parity between leading male and female characters in family television specifically, you know, it's a very different thing in like movies or you know adult television. But in children's television, specifically, we have seen a trend towards parity over the last 10 years, which is really encouraging.
And it was very fascinating to see that same parity happening here in the programs that were popular for boys ages 7 to 13.
Samantha Nzessi: That is wild. And I'm wondering now, like, what about, like, queer characters, you know,
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LGBTQIA characters and actors, like, what percentages do they appear at?
Soraya Giaccardi: In children's television, they're almost nonexistent. Queer characters are pretty absent from the screen altogether, especially queer, you know, queer boys and queer men. We see that -- You know, we see a general underrepresentation of queer characters in media more broadly, but especially in children's television. And my personal hypothesis there is that, you know, there's still a little bit of an underlying sense that, you know, while those things might be fine for other content, right, you know, it's maybe too much for children's content. And so there really is a lag in representation of queer characters in children's television.
Remoy Philip: Well, I want to -- I actually want to dig on that because, like, the paper in this report says, it's really like profound statement, like "Media representations of masculinity have "real world" effects on the well-being and behavior of boys and men
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and can impact their beliefs/behaviors toward women and girls."
And in this instance, how they treat anyone who may be LGBTQIA plus. So, Soraya, I'm wondering, can you spell that out a little bit more, like what these effects could look like?
Soraya Giaccardi: Yeah, so you know, there's this idea in media psychology, it's called "parasocial contact hypothesis," which is basically that...
Remoy Philip: Sick. Sick.
Soraya Giaccardi: ...the relationships -- I know, right? It sounds fancy. The relationships that we build with characters on screen can function just like real-life relationships. So we know that in the real world, right, having contact to, you know, marginalized communities lowers, right -- it provides kind of a buffer protection against, you know, prejudice and bias, right?
Obviously, you know, imperfect. But we know that just having access to these communities is so important for building positive attitudes towards those communities. And it turns out that even if you don't have access to those communities in real life,
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you can still build relationships with those communities through media characters, which is just fascinating.
So of course, you know, I think, you know, we talked earlier before we started recording about, you know, I grew up in Texas, right? I grew up in Texas, certainly at a time when I did not have much access to the queer community. But I remember, and again, the whole one television problem, we all, you know, all of my friends in high school, we had to wait for our parents to to be out of the house so that we could all get on Showtime and binge the L word, you know and that was our gateway to queer culture that we didn't have access to in real life.
Samantha Nzessi: That's incredible. I feel very -- It's like weird because on one level, I'm like, I'm happy that people can have those relationships through the screen, but on another level -- I don't know. There's something weird about it, right? I don't know. It's weird. I have to think about that a little bit more.
Remoy Philip: I think that sheds some light on like the human animal that's interesting that maybe we can dig into in our later down in our second segment. But. Actually, I want to -- Samantha, remember how we just talked about this, like,
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really cool parity between male and female characters, right? And that there's a large percentage of, like, leading female characters, right?
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, yes.
Remoy Philip: OK, so I want to bring some complexity into that, because this is, gets a little fascinating. With this stat, what do you two make of this particular finding? So, female characters are a high percentage of leading characters, but they're still under represented. It's still a smaller percentage when it, and it also is a prevailing sentiment when it comes to supporting and minor characters in the most popular boys' TV shows.
So they're universally less represented on the shows, but yet female characters speak and appear more often than male characters. So for percentages, that's 60 percent of the time they're speaking and they're on the screen 57. 2 percent of the time. So like, no matter what, female characters are underrepresented in these shows, but yet, they speak more than male characters.
That's got to have some interesting effects.
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Samantha Nzessi: Soraya, I got to hear what you think about this, because I'm like, what is going on?
Soraya Giaccardi: It's very context dependent. So it's so important to point out that this trend towards, you know, more female characters on children's television, on screen, in leading roles is recent, right?
We're talking about the last decade. There's been a very strong effort to improve the representation of girls and women on screen and so that's why these things can feel really counterintuitive because these are very recent changes and the children's television that we all grew up with did not look like this. And I always like to tell people like, you know, things have been looking good for the last few years but I you know -- Only time will tell, right, if this is a little blip in the radar, or if this is a new trend, a new continuation.
Maybe this is the new norm, where we're going to have, you know female characters in children's television that are speaking often, that are in leading roles. I, you know, being a data person,
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I want to see what it looks like year to year to get a sense of, you know, is this a unique moment in time, or have we really changed a trend long term?
So it really is important to point out though, like how recent this is because it does feel very counterintuitive and that's OK because the children's television that you and I grew up with did not look like that.
Remoy Philip: Well, I also wonder like -- and maybe this is my own personal like bias or like intellectual like leaning -- but I also wonder if it still is holding on to some sort of trope that boys can't or shouldn't communicate versus where it's natural for, like, women or girls or those who may not be quote unquote boys to be more communicative and open and share and talk.
And I, I think in -- Within that line of thinking, I think we're running up against like this interesting, like thought experiment, that kind of typical one where it's like, what came first, the chicken or the egg, right?
Samantha Nzessi: Meaning?
Remoy Philip: Yeah. Like, does TV inform these stereotypes that the boys see or does the culture we live in inform the stereotypes that kind of get mirrored
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on our TVs like for -- or our phones even now.
For example, like, one stereotype that this report highlights is self-sufficiency it documents like in these interesting statistics. On these shows, "Boys are more likely than girls to be shown without parents." Contrast, "Girls are more likely than boys to be shown in a close relationship with mothers."
Samantha Nzessi: OK, I see. So you're wondering, is, that idea of boys being more independent or self sufficient than girls, is that TV writers showing a bias to that stereotype or is that some sort of norm that producers have picked up on and are infusing into the shows?
Remoy Philip: Yeah, it's a tough one Soraya, what have you found or what are you thinking?
Soraya Giaccardi: I would say it's bidirectional, right? We know it works both ways. Both the content that we see on screen shapes our lives, but our, you know, the content is created by humans with lived experience. And that lived experience is going to shape what they put on television. So it's a bidirectional relationship, and I'm so glad that you brought it up because it's actually,
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I think, one of the biggest myths about media research that I come across very often is this assumption that media researchers are saying media's solely responsible for all of these things.
And that's certainly not true. There are lots of socializing factors in our lives: our parents, our schools, our communities, our churches, our -- you know, so many things and media is one component and a very important component of it, because for many years during our lives, we are spending more time in front of a television than we are speaking to our parents. But...
Remoy Philip: I know I did.
Soraya Giaccardi: ...it's definitely not the only factor. And so that's one of the biggest myths that I run into. And I love to tell people, like, you don't have to be conflicted about the chicken or the egg because it's both. It's both. We know they kind of feed on each other.
Remoy Philip: No, that's interesting because it is one factor in a huge society in a complex network of like socialization. But there's, like, one other aspect of, like, a stereotype that boys seem to face that this report highlights that the screen may reinforce, and it's about,
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like, acting tough, right? Like, male characters -- The report says male characters are less likely than female characters to show emotions, like empathy, happiness.
But here's a twist, Samantha, more complexity -- they're even less likely to be shown being angry. I wonder if that's like a new thing. So, like, female characters are written, directed, and acted to be more emotional -- that includes anger -- more than male characters. Thoughts?
Samantha Nzessi: Alright, so, the thing that I'll say about that is I think that people think stoicism is sexy.
And so I feel like -- And I'm not going to call out anybody [FAKE COUGHS] on this podcast [FAKE COUGHS] who might think the same thing, but yeah--
Remoy Philip: I think I watched a lot of TV growing up. I've been conditioned. I'm not apart from the condition.
Samantha Nzessi: Hey, listen, you know, the conditioning has been conditioned as uh, you know, Black Star said.
So, yeah, I mean, I do think. think that people think that stoicism is sexy. We talked about it with the military. We talked about, like, the notion of valor and what a man is, right, is being able to like keep that poker face
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no matter what. And I think that, you know, I feel like because maybe there are more women and girls, like femme characters on screen, there has to be that stark contrast to perpetuate this like patriarchal notion that we're different, right? That we're so starkly different. And so the more women are on screen and girls are on screen and femme people on screen speaking and expressing themselves, the less boys have to, to kind of like create that distance, right, between femininity and masculinity.
That's kind of my theory on it. I wonder what y'all think about that.
Soraya Giaccardi: I think that's fascinating. I think that's a fascinating perspective. And I think it's a wonderful thing. Like, it's a terrific thing that we've had so much -- so many efforts in the last decade focusing on improving the representation of women and girls.
Like, absolutely, that is so important. The underrepresentation was ridiculous. We were talking about like, you know, it was a three to one ratio, you know, between male and female characters.
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You know, it's so amazing that we've, we've dedicated so much effort and time in the last decade in particular to move the needle in terms of representation of girls and women, but someone that's been left out of the conversation is boys, right?
And so we still see a lot of these very common tropes, including that of men as being very like emotionally stoic and just being kind of emotionally flat, right? That is still something that we see a lot. And of course, right. Having emotions is not a gendered thing. It's a human thing. So it's important that we continue, you know, shedding light on, on that aspect of representation of boys.
Remoy Philip: Well, there's one more finding and stereotype I want to talk about that kind of connects us back to this emotional thing, or what the lack of representation may have an effect on. And that's around the stereotype of aggression. The report, it reads, "The most prominent stereotype about masculinity depicted in children's television is of boys and men as aggressors.
[00:28:00]
In boys' TV, male characters commit 62.5 (percent) of violent acts against another person. Male characters are more likely than female characters to be victims of violence.
Samantha Nzessi: Alright, so this is very interesting, and I think I know why you're bringing this up, but why don't you tell us?
Remoy Philip: Yeah. This one, it's like, we talk offline about this often about how there's not enough conversation about men and boys being the victims of violence. Well, now we have evidence that these TV shows, even the more evolved ones of our current time, shows that men and boys are depicted as being the most prominent victims.
Samantha Nzessi: Like these shows aren't really depicting boys being emotional to process and heal from that, the impact of that violence on them, right, and like how to heal from that. Am I wrong about that, Soraya?
Soraya Giaccardi: You're absolutely right. So even though we are seeing that the boys are more likely to be depicted as victims of violence, it's just kind of portrayed
[00:29:00]
as a normative experience and normal part of boyhood and manhood rather than, you know. If we were to see violence against women on screen, it's usually treated as an issue that needs to be discussed or handled, et cetera.
Whereas for male characters on screen, it's really more of a normative experience.
Remoy Philip: Well, let's take a beat to talk about why this is actually important or another reason it's important. Another piece of data, recent estimates of media use indicate that tweens -- that's children ages 8 to 12 -- consume an average of six hours of entertainment media that includes film, TV, video games, etc., on a daily basis.
And teens -- so that's ages 13 through 18 -- consume an average of nine hours daily.
Samantha Nzessi: OK, that's wild. And like, I have to go back to this cultivation theory, because like, how does that impact them, Soraya? Like, dang, that's a lot of TV. That is a lot of TV.
[00:30:00]
Soraya Giaccardi: I always like to point out that that's essentially equivalent to a full-time job.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, my God.
Soraya Giaccardi: A full-time job spent engaging with media and entertainment. And of course, this is why, you know, particularly during those adolescent years, we know that developmentally that is a period of time in which you're starting to explore your own identity in which you're seeking a little bit of separation.
That's not to say that you don't need your parents at that age. Of course you do, right? But naturally, developmentally at that stage, we're wanting a little bit more independence. We're wanting a little bit more separation because we're really starting to, to want to figure out who we are versus who we've been told we are.
And so, you know, think about being in that particular moment in life where you are seeking that kind of guidance and, and, and that exploration and, at the same time, spending what's equivalent to a full-time job watching content.
Remoy Philip: I don't know, for me, if it was nine hours, but I watched a lot of TV as a kid, especially like a latchkey kid, as we qualify it, single mom. Like TV,
[00:31:00]
I used to say all the time, is what raised me and I think it kind of did in a huge, huge capacity. So. We have all this information now and these stats and this complexity, I wonder if we should, like -- This is the moment we take advantage of the fact that we have a media psychologist here, right? Like, what do you say, Samantha?
Let's have Soraya break down some of the effects that may have happened when we were as little kiddos. Watch the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, please. Let's. Yeah, this should have happened years ago. So thank you. [LAUGHTER] Soraya, how does that sound?
Soraya Giaccardi: That sounds great.
Remoy Philip: Well, Samantha? So you're back in those early to mid '90s. You're a little kiddo in front of the TV. I'm assuming you're -- Actually, what are you snacking on? What was your go-to snack at that time?
Samantha Nzessi: Kinder bueno, because when I was watching the Fresh Prince --
Remoy Philip: That's the European pronunciation. Wow. Kinder bueno is what she was saying.
Samantha Nzessi: I was in France still, kinder bueno, kinder bueno. Oh, yeah, yeah, they have that here now. They used to not have it.
[00:32:00]
But yeah, that was, like, my favorite snack was on point. Still is.
Remoy Philip: OK, so let's go back in time. You're like snacking on a kinder, kinder bueno. I don't know how you pronounce that as a European, but and you're, you know, you're glued to the box TV, you got the Fresh Prince on every Monday or, you know, later on on cable. It's on every day for,
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, we had it syndicated. It was every day, yeah.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. So what's like one episode or scene maybe -- Or maybe it's like a reoccurring theme from Fresh Prince that looking back, you really think may have had an effect on you.
Samantha Nzessi: So to be honest, it's like -- It's interesting because there are so many -- I love that show, it was my favorite show, and there's so many parts of it that I really appreciated. Like, I want to give a small shout to like Will and Ashley's relationship because I thought that was like a very special relationship that they had.
And it's interesting if you contrast it with the thing that I think subtly impacted me the most, which is the entrance of Will's love interest into like the grand living room in Bel Air.
[00:33:00]
Right. So like, usually it was like some beautiful woman that came through dressed either to the nines or like casually, like sexy, beautiful, like cottage core -- whatever they're calling it these days.
And the audience was like [WHOOPS], like, it was just like, they were so happy to see her. I was happy to see her. Obviously, Will was happy to see her. And I was like, wow, when I'm older, I better look like that because damn. You know, like, one version of those. So...
Remoy Philip: OK, so you got a clip of that. Let's do this. Let's watch that together. And then let's talk about it some more. Soraya, you can get your like psychoanalysis of that.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, please.
Video Insert: Jeffrey: Miss Kayla Samuels. [AUDIENCE WHOOPING AND CHEERING]
Will: Voulez-vous couchez avec moi ce soir?
Jeffrey: Miss Janet.
Remoy Philip: So I can -- I remember this theme constantly happening, but I just want to say, first off,
[00:34:00]
I don't remember Janet or whatever that first character was. That's Whitley from A Different World, but that's fine. And I can understand it's, you know, a little French in there, so you may appreciate it for that. But I'm wondering, Soraya, you know, Samantha gave us a little context of why she picked this and wondering what effects it may have. What do you think this could have had an effects on, especially an individual who's a young girl?
Samantha Nzessi: You know, it's really interesting because when we talk about like sexual socialization, which is simply how children learn about like what's expected in romantic relationships and what's expected in sexual relationships, one of the common things that we see over and over is this idea that men are the pursuers and women are the gatekeepers, right? Women decide who gets in and who doesn't. But women don't pursue, they don't have that, that, that. agency. And so, you know, scenes like this, right? They just, they play into that same idea of like, you know, women are objects that are there for men to pursue, to chase et cetera.
[00:35:00]
And, you know, obviously that tells you something about your role as a woman, as a girl. And again, you've got to think about like, if you're watching this as a child and you don't have real world experience with relationships yet, you don't yet know what really flies and what doesn't, right? And so you're watching this thinking that that's what's expected of you.
And so, you know, as a girl, you can watch that and think you're supposed to be an ornament, right? You're supposed to be this trophy. You're supposed to be this thing that gets picked. And as boys, though, it also can really reinforce this notion that you're supposed to be driven by these sexual desires above anything else.
And so what's really interesting is that often when we talk about what sexual agency looks like in adulthood, it looks different for men than it does for women. So for women, sexual agency means being able to ask for what you want, being able to pursue the things that you want, feeling like you have control.
For men, sexual agency is about being able to say no when you want, rather than feeling like, because you're a man, you're supposed to be driven by this, and you're supposed to always pursue it
[00:36:00]
and seek it and want it, and if you don't, then there's something wrong with you. So for women, sexual agency is about feeling more empowered to go out and pursue the types of relationships you want, whereas for men, sexual agency is often about really being able to disentangle what the world thinks you're supposed to look like as a man, which is always chasing women, always aiming, you know, for an end goal there and kind of recognizing the reality of the emotional and relationship components that go into those experiences.
Remoy Philip: Samantha, your jaw was on the floor. Why?
Samantha Nzessi: I know! I was like, Oh my God. Wow, to hear about like the restriction, right? Because it's like, I mean, as a woman, I've taught, I've thought a lot about what like sexual agency is for women, but honestly, I'm sort of like baffled at my own, like, I don't think that I've really thought about what men's sexual agency was because I think that in my own patriarchal conditioning, I'm like, well, men have literally always had sexual agency. And like, I've just never even thought about the fact that it could be about like constraint
[00:37:00]
or that it could be about like boundaries, right, which is like such a profound concept.
And certainly when it comes to Will in the Fresh Prince, he exhibited none of that, right? Like the only time he was like, trying to like, have some sort of like, OK, I probably shouldn't do this. You know, as if it had to do with like, you know, stepping on somebody else's territory or if it had something to do with like telling like his younger niece that she shouldn't do anything and telling the boys to stay away from her.
So, you know, it's, it's interesting.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. And I think like it also like, it's not in this scene particularly, but like, there's this thing, especially in '90s TV and movie, it was like, and it affected me in ways when we talk about consent and agency is like, men are supposed to pursue and continually pursue.
And even if it's a no, it's probably like a soft no, or she can be convinced, or, you know, it's like this weird tug and pull game that's very uncomfortable that we didn't talk about. That was never like,
[00:38:00]
better contextualized for individuals of our age in that generation, and I imagine that has, or I can't imagine what the effects it's had on me.
Samantha Nzessi: Talk about it. I mean, I, this is so crazy. I think watching back like episodes for this, I was like, yeah, this still knocks. This is still hilarious. But like, Will just harasses women all day, every day. And it's hilarious because it's Will Smith, but he's just harassing them and he doesn't ever stop. And it's, it's just crazy.
Soraya Giaccardi: Yeah. Yeah, so some of the things that the research have found is that oftentimes, on screen, what we see romanticized as like ideal grand romantic gestures or courtship, oftentimes what the thing is, it's not depicted as being a problematic thing. It's depicted as being a romantic thing. And as, as being, you know, that's how you court a woman and that's how you show her that you love her, is that you, you pursue her and you don't give up on her, et cetera.
And that can have all sorts of impacts in how we behave in our own personal relationships.
[00:39:00]
And again, I always have to come back to the part that you've got to think about the developmental aspect of this. You've got to think about how, you know, how this might impact an adult differently. You know, an adult who has real world experience and knows, you know, like, hey, stalking someone is not cool, versus, if you are a younger adolescent who is still, you know, unexperienced with romantic relationships, still ,you know, just figuring it out, these are the scripts that you have. These scripts of, like, constant pursuit. And one of the examples that I like to use, which is always a little, you know, people are always shocked when I use this example because it's a beloved movie.
But the example that I like to use for this is shocker. The Notebook. The Notebook -- I know!
Samantha Nzessi: That's not where I thought you were gonna go with that. OK, sorry.
Remoy Philip: I love that movie. Don't judge me. Sorry.
Soraya Giaccardi: I mean, there are lots of things about that movie that are absolutely beautiful. Don't get me wrong. And the reason that I like to use the example is because it always throws people off
[00:40:00]
and then it really makes us kind of question things.
So the scene in which Noah is hanging from the top of the Ferris wheel threatening to fall to his, you know, maybe death in order to get a date with Allie.
Remoy Philip: How is that not romantic?! JK.
Soraya Giaccardi: Like that is, you know, that's harassment. [LAUGHS] That's stalking, that's manipulation. If you had a friend who came to you and told me, this guy, you know, really wants me so much, he threatened to fall off a Ferris wheel, unless I said yes.
You'd be like "Walk away please, friend." When we watch it in this film, we don't feel that way at all, because it's portrayed in a way that makes us feel like it's beautiful and lovely and it, you know, and it has a happy ending, right? In this situation -- which is something that I find really interesting and I see very often, right?
A lot of times, you know, this aggressive pursuit ends up successful for men on screen. And so what does that mean for, you know, off screen relationships
[00:41:00]
and off screen experiences where you, you might really buy into that idea of like, No, it doesn't really mean no. She just means she wants to be chased.
Samantha Nzessi: And there's also like, it's Ryan Gosling doing it, right? So you look around, I mean, I don't know, a lot of people don't think that Ryan Gosling is cool. I'm a Ryan Gosling fan. I think he's hot. I think he's charming. I think he's a great actor. And I feel like it's one thing if he's doing it or like Brad Pitt back in the day, which I mean, I have a whole thing about that, but I digress.
Or Will Smith in this, you know, Fresh Prince, right? Where it's just like this, like tall You know, like gorgeous man, you know, who's like being hilarious and like nonthreatening and all these things. So it's like, it's just more palatable because we have a notion also of what like male beauty standards are like, even if we don't talk about it, even if that's not the way that we put it, you know, we have a notion of like, what is acceptable coming from a particular type of guy.
And I feel like, then we don't look at the behavior as much, but we look at who it's coming from and we're like, OK, we'll let that slide. And then we let it slide over and over again
[00:42:00]
until we realize that it's like a patriarchal norm that we have a hard time doing away with. If that makes sense.
Soraya Giaccardi: Absolutely. Yeah. Makes total sense.
Samantha Nzessi: You know, but what about you, Remoy? Like, what's a scene from Fresh Prince that you think affected you? Like, impacted you?
Remoy Philip: Yeah. There's, I think it's the one a lot of people may remember from that. I'm going to actually share it now for giving context. And after we watch it, we can talk about it.
Video Insert: Uncle Phil: I'm sorry, Will.
Will: You know what? Actually, this works out better for me. You know, the slimmies of summer come to class wearing next to nothing. You know what I'm saying?
Uncle Phil: Will, it's all right to be angry.
Will: Hey, why should I be mad? I'm saying at least he said goodbye this time. I just wish I hadn't wasted my money buying this stupid present.
Uncle Phil: I'm sorry. I, you know, if there was something that I could do --
Will: Hey, you know what? You ain't got to do nothing, Uncle Phil. Hey, you know, ain't like I'm still five years old, you know? Ain't like I'm gonna be sitting up every night asking my mom, When's Daddy coming home, you know? Who needs him? Hey, he wasn't there to teach me how to shoot my first basket, but I learned, didn't I?
[00:43:00]
Hey, I got a pretty damn good at it too, didn't I, Uncle Phil?
Uncle Phil: Yeah, you did.
Will: Got through my first date without him, right? I learned how to drive, I learned how to shave, I learned how to fight without him. I had 14 great birthdays without him. He never even sent me a damn card. TO HELL WITH HIM!
[WHIMPERING] I ain't need him then and I don't need him now. Now, you know what, Uncle Phil? I'ma get through college without him. I'ma get a great job without him. I'ma marry me a beautiful honey. And I'ma have me a whole bunch of kids. I'ma be a better father than he ever was. And I sure as hell don't need him for that.
Cause ain't a damn thing he could ever teach me about how to love my kids!
How come he don't want me, man?
Samantha Nzessi: Well, the no tear game didn't work. So, uh...
Remoy Philip: Yeah, that's such a tough one. And Will Smith and James Avery play it so incredibly well. It's like watching theater on a stage, but it [00:44:00] just happens to be in your TV. And I think for me, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't grow up with the father figure or father in my life and so to be watching that as like, again, 8-, 9-, 10-year-old kid and kind of seeing Will like being kind of my analog, being able to communicate things maybe I felt or wanted to feel or just this sense of loneliness. It was a huge cathartic kind of tool for me. Does that track, Soraya?
Soraya Giaccardi: That tracks. I mean, what we see in this scene is a really like beautiful moment of emotional vulnerability between two men. And what I think is really interesting is that, you know, kind of in the beginning, Will is, you know, he starts out with anger and, and, you know, he has this sense of like, I don't need him.
I don't care, this and that. And as he continues to talk, he gets more and more emotionally vulnerable because Uncle Phil, like, provides the space for that, right? He allows for that to happen. He doesn't shut it down. You know, he doesn't say like, you know, Boys don't cry or, you know,
[00:45:00]
you know, You shouldn't care about this, etc.
He provides the emotional space for Will to feel these feelings and to come to him. And so it's this really beautiful moment where we're both seeing like this emotional vulnerability from Will, but we're also seeing this really, really great modeling of a parent figure kind of providing the space for boys and men to have those complex emotions.
Remoy Philip: Now, I'm glad you bring that up because like there's, you know, when you first watch this the first time or even now, like rewatching it, you may think like it's cathartic for me or for individuals, or it elicits this emotional response because it's like this longing for the father and things of that nature.
And we're actually going to dive into this in a future episode, like how much a biological father plays a role in an individual's life and the need for one, or how much maybe that's more so like socialized through our particular society. But the way that you bring it up, that Uncle Phil, just allowing the space
[00:46:00]
and empowering the space and giving the opportunity for a space, especially for men who usually don't have space to communicate emotions, I wonder if that's like actually what elicits such a strong response from people, especially men and even boys like myself. Does that make sense?
Soraya Giaccardi: Yeah, that's a great, that's a great thought. That's a really great thought.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. So this is all fascinating. So actually, let's go a little deeper into what Soraya learning in our next segment, our Five Questions with Soraya. How does that sound?
Soraya Giaccardi: Let's go for it.
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready. This is great.
Remoy Philip: All right folks, stick with us.
AD BREAK: I actually found out later by a friend that Matthew tried to kill himself after that.
What does it look like to go from a perpetrator of violence to an undaunted ally for those who are vulnerable? So, I mean. That made me feel really guilty. And I couldn't eat anything, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't do anything.
[00:47:00]
I mean, I thought I deserved what he got. That's when I started talking to you.
This is the story of Louis, a 12-year-old who went through a remarkable transformation to become the young man he is today. It's also one of the most powerful things I've ever recorded as part of Breaking the Boy Code, a podcast centered on the inner lives of boys and what it looks like for parents and educators to raise the next generation of men.
Created in collaboration with Next Gen Men Podcast Network, listen to Breaking the Boy Code podcast wherever you get podcasts.
Remoy Philip: Welcome back. So, Samantha.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, Remoy.
Remoy Philip: Can I remind you some of the last questions you've received in this segment?
Samantha Nzessi: As they say, let the teacher teach.
Remoy Philip: OK, should we, actually, let's, should we name this segment "Remoy Teaches"? [LAUGHTER] No? No? OK. So the last few times we've done this --
Samantha Nzessi: How did you get that from what I said?
Remoy Philip: The last few times we've done this, you've answered questions like this. Why did you start this podcast?
[00:48:00]
What's your relationship with Serena Williams? How do you reconcile watching something or entertaining something that is problematic?
Samantha Nzessi: Right. Yeah. So, Soraya, me and Remoy will ask you five questions in total, and then we'll go further into these connections between TV, masculinity with a hard K and gender.
Soraya Giaccardi: Excellent.
Remoy Philip: At the end of those five questions, you'll get a chance to ask one of us a question. I mentioned a few of the previous questions we've got as examples. Does that make sense, Soraya?
Soraya Giaccardi: That makes sense.
Remoy Philip: OK, so in the past we've done this five-question bit. We split them back-and-forth style. Like, it was going, I'll ask one and then, Samantha, you'll ask one. How about this time we try, I take the first few, you take the last two, and then we'll end on Soraya's question for you. How does that sound, Samantha?
Samantha Nzessi: That sounds great. Let's do it.
Remoy Philip: OK, five questions. First question. It's, oh, it's just now I only got three. So it's a lot of pressure to get them right. OK, let's just do this. You know, let's keep it big picture up front.
[00:49:00]
I'm wondering, Soraya, what does TV offer us as people, or like, maybe the question is, why is TV so important?
Soraya Giaccardi: Oh my goodness, TV is so important because it can function -- It can play so many different roles in our lives. I know, you know, often we get caught up talking about the pitfalls and the negatives, but it can also, again, like we've discussed in the past it can, you know, expose you to communities that you don't have access to in real life. It can give you role models that you don't have access to in real life. I know, as a child, for example, that my gendered values were quite different than the ones that I was growing up with, both in my family and in my community. And so I didn't have any real- world examples of like women living life in the way that I wanted to live. And so I like lived vicariously through all of these characters on screen.
And I would just fantasize about being them, about being Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or, you know, you know, things like that. So it can really, [00:50:00] you know, of course, there's also like an entertainment factor but there are also, you know, much deeper benefits to television including, you know, escape.
Being able to model -- you know, witness and model new relationships, et cetera, all of those things, which are you know, really, really unique aspects of television and real interesting benefits of it.
Remoy Philip: OK, so like I understand all that. And so this will be a follow-up question, but this is also my question too -- Notice, Samantha, how I do that.
I use my follow-up as part of an actual question, but that's fine. Soraya, why does it have so much influence on us?
Soraya Giaccardi: Ooh, great question. So. Sometimes in the research, we talk about media as being a super peer, right? Media can function much like, you know -- During adolescence and young adulthood, like our peers are really important.
We care very much about what our peers think, what our peers like, about fitting in, and media is like the ultimate cool girl, right?
[00:51:00]
The ultimate cool peer that can just amplify messages that we're already getting from our peers and our friends and in our real life, but it can amplify it to the max.
And, and given that, you know, media can really be a cultural experience, it really has this kind of, this power to amplify in a way that's much more, you know, difficult to achieve with other media.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, my God. Let me find out. Media is Regina George. Isn't that crazy? That's wild! It makes so much sense though. Like it makes so much sense. Wow. It's crazy.
Remoy Philip: Good, good. Good allusion. OK. So that's helpful. Look, I gotta say you have a dream job. I just want to know, like, how do we go from like, and maybe you can like spell this out, like what it looked like. OK. But like you go from, I think like a kid in Texas to like watching a lot of TV and then like having some light bulb moment where it's like, you know what I want to do?
I want to study this and know that this, this has effects and then just do that. Tell me that story, please.
[00:52:00]
Soraya Giaccardi: So I love that you asked that question because people ask me that a lot and I really, really -- It feels so important for me to tell people that I didn't have a plan. I didn't know that this was a career option, right?
And it's so important for me to share that with people because, essentially, what I'm trying to share is this hope that like, you don't have to have life all figured out. You just have to be curious and willing to explore and see where life takes you. I did not know that this was a career option.
Absolutely not. I thought that I was going to go to college, get my bachelor's degree, get, you know, an office job like everyone else. Like it really, none of this. was in my vision for the future. It was going to college and realizing that I was struggling very much in picking between psychology and communications.
And what I, what happened is that I actually had two really great mentors in each department, one in communications and one in psychology, who gave me the opportunity to realize that those things aren't separate things, right? Communications and psychology very much are intertwined and who kind of showed me –
[00:53:00]
I didn't know at the time -- but showed me that like all of these things and all of these ideas about how media, you know, shapes our lives are things that can actually be studied, they can be measured, they can be challenged, right?
Because using this data, we can use that, you know, for outrage to try to challenge certain narratives or promote others et cetera. So it really -- It was a lot of guidance that ended up getting me to this point, but I like to say, like, you just have to be open and curious and you know, think big, think big, but I certainly did not have this as, as my vision but I do totally agree that I have the dream job.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, nice. That's awesome. Good for you. That's great. I like when, I like that you feel that way, right? That we're not just on the outside looking and like, this is the coolest shit ever. That's awesome.
Remoy Philip: I mean, we don't -- We may not get paid for this dream job, but we kind of got a dream job too. And on that note, Samantha, well, it's your turn for questions. I hand the baton.
[00:54:00]
Samantha Nzessi: All right. So I have so many questions for you. Because I think this is like the dopest thing ever to be able to deconstruct this in this way. My first question is, What has surprised you the most in your TV research when it comes to gender representations and that whole bag?
And I have a follow-up question to that, but that's the first part.
Soraya Giaccardi: Ooh, that is such an excellent question. I think one of the things that kind of continuously surprises me is how the data, right, can really be a reality check to our perceptions of where media is at and how it's going.
Like, we -- I think you mentioned earlier, a study from the Geena Davis Institute where they looked at how often women were speaking, but they also contrasted that to people's estimates of how often women were speaking and people were estimating like women are speaking about 50 percent of the time. And it turns out they're speaking like, you know, something like 17 percent of the time.
[00:55:00]
To me, it speaks to the way our biases are just so ingrained in us, right? That it can really shape our perceptions and that data can be this like reality check of like, Oh, we're still seeing this trope of like the bumbling, you know, foolish dad that doesn't know how to, you know, take care of children.
Like, we're still seeing that in 2024, right? Or we're still seeing these like, you know, coercive and, you know, kind of stalking-like behaviors and romantic pursuits. Those kinds of things I think are always very, very surprising to me to see the numbers every time.
Samantha Nzessi: Well, yeah, actually, my follow-up question was going to be around that, right, is like right now in the country, we're trying to get, you know, Roe versus Wade to be back on the table because it got overturned. And that was due to, as we talked about with Heidi Sieck of Vote Pro-Choice, to this like incredible -- well, incredibly evil, but incredible campaign by, you know, conservative parties to make people think that it's a 50/50 divide, when in fact, 70 percent of the country
[00:56:00]
for the most part has felt like, you know, fem people and women should have access to reproductive health.
So it's like this humbling that the data does for us of showing us what things really are, because I feel like, you know, the one thing that you said that I really, really want to, like, go back to is this notion that -- There's this notion that women-led movies or girl-led TV shows or fem-led, you know, whatever media content are pieces of content that, you know, like boys and masc people shy away from, and that's not actually the case, right? And I feel like this -- There seems to be a lot of, I don't know. It feels like there's like an invisible campaign making us think all of these things about the way that a society is supposed to work that really aligns with patriarchal norms, gender expectations that uphold, you know, masculinity,
[00:57:00]
manhood at the -- as this particular thing, and, and it's like, when you look at the data, it seems like, Oh, there's like a lot more room for difference.
There's room for people to have -- for different types of people to show up on screen, different people to be related to on screen. So why do we think those things if the data simply isn't there?
Soraya Giaccardi: Such a great question. And like, here's the thing, deep-rooted attitudes, one, they're difficult to change, right? And two, narratives are really powerful. If you control the narrative, you can convince people of a lot of things, including, you know, you know, convincing people that like, most people fall on one side or another of a particular issue when it really is more, the reality is more different, etc. Narratives are incredibly powerful, so I actually like that you make the Roe v. Wade reference because there's actually -- Like, the circle of people that work in politics and the circle of people that work in media, it's like, it's a Venn diagram. There's an overlap. There are a lot of people who you know,
[00:58:00]
work in DC in politics and then come on to LA and start production companies, and -- because there is this awareness and this recognition that narratives matter. And so you may be trying to, for example, pass a law or a proposal, but you have to deal with all of these layers of like, you know, political bullshit in order to actually accomplish those things. And so there is this recognition that sometimes before we can accomplish those things politically, we need to step back and change the narrative culturally to then have the people power to have the pressure, right, to be able to move those things forward.
So there's a really interesting kind of relationship, I think, between a lot of folks, you know, who have worked in politics and then go on to, you know, to work in media. And again, it's that recognition of exactly what you're saying, this recognition of that narratives matter. And if we have this narrative in our head that like, Movies will not succeed with women, like, it's not going to take just one or two movies showing the opposite.
[00:59:00]
It's going to take saying that over and over and over and over again until the broader narrative is changed.
Remoy Philip: So, Soraya, we've done a lot of TV talking, media talking, The collusion between Hollywood and the government. That's fine.
Now it's your turn. What's one question you'd like to ask Samantha? Maybe it's about her relationship with TV. Sure. Or it's about why she loves me so much, huh? No? Why I'm the greatest? Why I'm a genius?
Samantha Nzessi: You know, maybe that's a narrative that you need to check, Remoy. Let's go ahead and create a narrative around this part that is just about the pod.
It's still about the pod.
Remoy Philip: I was just trying to volley volley and you just spiked it home. That's fine. OK.
Soraya Giaccardi: I am always very curious in hearing about -- You know, obviously you've got this critical lens, you're thinking about things deeply, you're having all of these conversations about masculinity.
How do you navigate your relationship with media? Right? Which is often very imperfect.
[01:00:00]
The things we love can also have some very problematic things in it. How do you navigate your relationship with media and kind of, you know, deal with that, that inner conflict of, of loving something that can, you know, sometimes, you know, feel like it's in contrast to our values, et cetera?
Samantha Nzessi: What a wonderful question. I don't. [LAUGHS] I feel like I... Yeah, I mean, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm not angry every time I listen to like hip-hop, for example, or at a point where like -- You know, watching these Fresh Prince episodes and stuff, I was like letting myself have the joy, even though I recognize that there was like some problematic, you know, issue --
I mean, there was some problematic things in the episode, but is a really tough balance to strike. So I want to know that about you. Actually, I'm like, how do you do it? You're like a media psychologist. Like, how do you do it? Like, that's a great question.
Soraya Giaccardi: Oh, great. I mean, I, listen, I love to talk. I could talk forever.
[01:01:00]
So I think one of the ways in which I handle this is by using all of those things as conversation starters and using them -- And obviously, right, it has its time and place. Nobody likes the person who is sitting next to you during the movie and always being like, Oh, did you see that? What do you think about that dynamic? [LAUGHS]
You know, but what, you know, in the appropriate place and time, right, it's using those as stepping stools. And in fact, when I used to teach college-level classes, I would fill my lectures with media clips because they're so engaging. Because if you're going to learn about operant conditioning, right, it's much more exciting to do it watching a scene from the Big Bang Theory than having me, you know, stand there and be like, "Operant conditioning is defined as," you know, so.
I think of media as just this incredible tool to start conversations, and with kids a lot of times, like, I tell parents, like, the conversations don't -- You don't have to have this whole speech and this whole -- It's just about being like, "Huh, that was interesting.
[01:02:00]
What did you think about that?" I'm just kind of probing and encouraging some thought there.
And, and so I think that's one of the ways in which I deal with it. And I, I know, like, obviously media has played a role in my life. I learned English watching television, like, you know, all of these programs. And oftentimes when I watch them back, I watch them back and I'm like, Ooh, that, that was, that was -- Yikes, that was problematic. And, but I, I navigate, I, I kind of love the complexity of how these things can, you know, incorporate some problematic aspects, but also have things like this scene that we saw from the Fresh Prince that is a beautiful moment of emotional vulnerability between men. And yeah, just using those as opportunities to spark dialogue.
Remoy Philip: No, I'm just like wondering, Soraya, like, you know, you're doing, you've done education, you've worked on a lot of research and reporting, and you're still doing that. I'm wondering, like, is there any new, like, exciting research coming out or papers or reports coming out that you want to share? Or maybe it's even the opposite.
[01:03:00]
Maybe there's like a TV show coming out or movie that you get your eyes and ears on in regards to, like, maybe what it's saying about gender, for the audience to listen or get their eyes on. What is it?
Soraya Giaccardi: Yeah, good question. So I would say, keep an eye on work coming out of the Norman Lear Center over the next few months. We have a really cool report on Native representation.
Remoy Philip: Hell yeah, let's fucking go.
Soraya Giaccardi: Yes, Native, and like, specifically -- I mean, OK, I could go on a tangent, but Native representation on screen has really been rocked since, like, 2020. So it was an opportunity for us to really look at how Native representation was looking at this very unique period in time when there were so many Native creators behind the screen as well.
We have that coming up, and we actually, I think -- and this is another one you might be interested in, We have another report coming out soon on how entertainment narratives can play a role in challenging abortion misinformation. So I think, I think those will be, you know, a few things coming out soon that will be of interest.
[01:04:00]
Remoy Philip: Wow. I mean, it does sound of interest a lot, both equally. I think that means we just have to have you back on at some point in the near to distant future.
Samantha Nzessi: I'm like, how can we continue on the Soraya train? Can we... Yeah, this is great.
Soraya Giaccardi: Any time.
Remoy Philip: Awesome. It's been so great.
Thank you for joining us today and we'll, we'll talk soon.
Soraya Giaccardi: Thank you so much.
Remoy Philip: All right, Samantha. You know what?
Samantha Nzessi: Tell me, Remoy.
Remoy Philip: So we're actually getting more and more listeners.
Samantha Nzessi: Wow! That is actually very exciting. Yes!
Remoy Philip: And I don't know about you, but I've been getting great feedback from people about the episodes.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, word? Really? What are they saying? I want to know. Tell me.
Remoy Philip: I've heard, like, people are telling me, like, different spots of the episodes, like, all the way through, they're listening, giving great feedback. So, not only are we getting more listeners, they're listening to the entirety of the episodes and having a good time.
Samantha Nzessi: That's beautiful. Continue doing that, audience. That's awesome.
Remoy Philip: We want, actually, more, don't we?
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, 100%. Let's spread this far and wide.
[01:05:00]
Remoy Philip: Yeah, like, as me and Samantha continue looking under every nook and cranny for, like, the performance of masculinity, or
how gender manifests, or how we even manifest it, we're hoping to connect with more of that curious audience who is just excited about all these discoveries and what they can learn.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, you want me to be on a billboard to represent masculinity? Why didn't you just say that? I know Next Gen Men has that in the budget. I know they do.
Remoy Philip: Maybe. But maybe we can actually get more creative with it. Ask, you know, this new growing audience to help us out.
Samantha Nzessi: Yes, grab a phone, any phone, iPhones, Samsung phones, and just hit subscribe. Doesn't have to be yours, just grab it.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, I'm not saying no to that plan, but first thing if you're not already in whatever app you call your podcast home, make sure you're subscribed or following this feed. That means each time a new episode comes out, it'll land in your queue ready for your ears.
Samantha Nzessi: Yeah, I mean, seriously all jokes aside, please don't steal anything. I was just joking. If you have a partner, a wife, a husband, a brother, a mother who you think may enjoy this conversation,
[01:06:00]
grab their phone and hit the subscribe button for them. Trust us. They'll thank you for it. They'll buy you lunch. They'll take you long walk on beach.
Remoy Philip: Or just, you know, tell them about the podcast too or and make sure they just subscribe, like glare at them, stare at them, burn holes through their soul until they subscribe. They'll be grateful for it because our next episode is going to be. Well.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, snap! That's the one about me getting married, right? Oh, boy.
Remoy Philip: We're a month away from Samantha's nuptials, so there's no better time to put you, Samantha, to the test of the truth. I'm talking gender, race, and marriage. And see if you're still down.
Samantha Nzessi: Oh, boy. It's about to get very real.
Remoy Philip: Things are about to be very expensive. It's already been very expensive. It's getting really expensive.
Samantha Nzessi: [LAUGHS NERVOUSLY] Dude, please don't remind me! OK. God.
Remoy Philip: And until that next time, I'm your boy, Remoy George Phillip, thee first.
Samantha Nzessi: And it's Samantha Nzessi. Thank you so much for listening.
Remoy Philip: Peace.
Samantha Nzessi: Ciao.
[01:07:00]
Remoy Philip: I'm sure we could do some Kevin Bacon and connect the dots.
Samantha Nzessi: What…?