The MASKulinity alarm is ringing again! 🚨 Pew Research Center just dropped a new report asking the big question: Are men really lonely? Samantha got on the line with one of the report's key researchers to dig into the findings. Listen in as she shares with Remoy all the surprising results they found.
In this final episode of the season, Samantha and Remoy tackle a question that’s been at the heart of so many conversations lately: Are men truly lonely? It’s a topic that hits home for so many of us, especially as we think about how gender norms shape not just our actions but our deepest connections.
Luckily, The Pew Research Center has been hard at work exploring these very questions. Their latest report, Men, Women, and Social Connections, sheds light on the gendered trends shaping relationships in America today. Samantha had the chance to sit down with Kim Parker, one of the report's lead researchers, to dig into the findings. And in this episode, she brings all those insights back to Remoy.
Referenced on this episode:
COMPANION PIECES:
Remoy Philip: [00:00:00] It's your boy, Remoy George Philip, THEE First.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: And I'm Samantha Nzessi-Kifle.
Remoy Philip: This is MASKulinity.
The
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: show that investigates the performance of masculinity in the world today. And you know, we spell it with a hard K. So Remoy?
Remoy Philip: Yes, Samantha?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: I have a question for you.
Remoy Philip: Okay, let's let the reporting begin. Let's go.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well, so how often do you feel optimistic?
Remoy Philip: Optimistic like a-- Like, about life? Is that what we're talking about right now?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, like, would you say that you feel optimistic all or most of the time?
Remoy Philip: Let's not do binaries, you know? Like, let's do spectrum. Like, Obama years, that's when I think I was the most optimistic.
Shit was good. Good. I mean, it wasn't good, but come on. I was just at [00:01:00] least a little bit more optimistic. I think more recent COVID, not so much, obviously, but then after COVID life was, I was optimistic. A lot of the world wasn't, but I was, I was good. Last year? No! So we'll just in that last year, maybe I'll say like 12%, 13.5%, maybe on a good day, 22.7%, you know?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Okay, so we're on the left side of the spectrum, and you're part of about 42 percent of American adults who feel that way, according to Pew Research Center's latest report on social connections.
Remoy Philip: Ah, latest as-- You mean new report, huh?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, so Pew actually released a report called "Men, Women, and Social Connections," where they measured how optimistic and lonely Americans feel.
Remoy Philip: Okay, but social connections, like I'm assuming that's like Friends, besties, friendships, [00:02:00] right?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, so the report actually also measured how many friends Americans have and who they'd reach out to for emotional support, among other things.
Remoy Philip: Okay. Fascinating. All right. And this is like another embargoed version, like you got a chance to read through it before it was released to the world?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, honestly, shout-out to Pew for sending that report over. And shout-out to them always. I had a chance to talk to one of the authors of this report, actually, Kim Parker, who's the Director of Social Trends and Research at Pew.
Remoy Philip: All right, not mad at that. But, you know, after reading the report and talking with Kim, you know, like, what's the one insight or feeling you're coming away with?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well I think that it's, that there are a lot of the ways that Americans feel that have evolved compared to like the way we traditionally live life, but they don't really act that way. So like they feel a certain way, they act a different way. And I think that's all due to perception. That's really what I'm coming up with. With after this report.
Remoy Philip: [00:03:00] Well, did you ask her why?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Actually, I did, and we'll get into that right after the break.
Ad Break: Curious about Next Gen Men? We're a small part of a much larger movement to undefine masculinity for a brighter future. Our mission is clear: empower the next generation to use their curiosity, empathy, and courage to build a more equitable world. Join the Next Gen Men community as we learn and unlearn together. We're here to support boys and men to break free from limiting stereotypes. We're not just an organization; we're a catalyst for reimagining masculinity and fostering inclusivity.
We're here to help open up possibilities for what men and boys can be. Explore the world of Next Gen Men at nextgenmen.ca and join the community to make a difference. Next Gen Men, shaping tomorrow's leaders one step at a time. Join us and help [00:04:00] undefine masculinity and empower the next generation of men to lead with empathy and courage.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: All right, so we're back. So friendships and social connections.
Remoy Philip: All right, the new paper, we've got access to. I mean, but like, I need to hear more, like, is the data, you know, kind of organized in men and women only?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, statistical data still suffers from being very restricted to just two genders. So, yeah.
Remoy Philip: Okay, but is, like, data science getting better about this whole binary thing?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Oh, yeah. There are some kickass, really dope folks fighting the fight to make data more inclusive and more reflective of the society that we actually live in. So, shout-out to them, you know, doing the good work.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, let's get them in a future episode, because that sounds sick.
But this paper, right? Why? Or how, maybe?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well, I'm glad you asked because Kim told it all. So here it goes.
Kim Parker: So we've been for the last six months or so, working on, or [00:05:00] even longer, working on a big project on men and masculinity, because this has been very much a part of the national conversation. The first one came out before the election and focused more on sort of looking at these issues through a political and ideological lens.
And then this one, we wanted to look separately at the concepts of social connections, well- being, friendship, those kinds of things. There's been a lot of conversation about loneliness in this country and particularly about potentially an epidemic of male loneliness, so we wanted to explore that, and see, when we talk to thousands of Americans, are men really more likely to say they feel lonely than women?
And where do they draw support when they do need-- When they do need emotional support, where do they turn? So those are some of the things that we explored in this report, and we thought it made sense to give this sort of a separate treatment from the other kind of deep dive we did on modern masculinity.
Remoy Philip: Okay, so Kim's talking about two papers here, I [00:06:00] think, like. And that must be like the first one we received, I don't know, like a month ago. And we discussed about it before the election. And this new one, this one, like about friendships and also targeting, like, are Americans lonely?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, this series on masculinity, which is amazing, first of all, that Pew is doing that right. Like, first kind of measured along the political lines. Because it was leading up to the election, they wanted to see how people felt. And especially because this was such a quote unquote gendered election. Right. And then this new report is really measuring like people have been talking about male loneliness for a while.
Like where do Americans stand on that? Which I think is like really timely and great.
Remoy Philip: Well, that's the elephant in the room. Like we've been discussing this thesis a lot with others and ourselves, like are men lonely? Like, or, you know, are they at least more lonely than the rest of the people in the world?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: What would you guess?
Remoy Philip: Yeah. I mean, like, as we've discussed, I would say yes, and like, as I've clocked with friends and other male figures in my life, that bias, like, [00:07:00] I would say so, I think, almost adamantly, yes, I think. Yeah.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: All right. Yeah. Yeah. So let's see if you're right.
Kim Parker: We found that 16 percent of Americans say they feel lonely or isolated from others around them all or most of the time. But when we look to see if men and women reported those feelings at differing rates, we found that they really didn't. Similar shares of men and women, almost exactly the same share, said that they often feel lonely or isolated from others around them.
Remoy Philip: Oh, fascinating. So it's like, no. Men and women are actually feeling roughly around the same bit of loneliness if they are feeling it, the percentages are like relatively equal. Is that what we're saying?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Basically. And I feel like that's really wild, right? Because it's like, you know, we've been talking about this for so long. We've talked about it a bunch right here on this podcast. And so it's like, now, having heard this, like I was really surprised to read this in the report and like talking [00:08:00] to Kim about it. And so it's like, why do we think that there's an epidemic of male loneliness?
Remoy Philip: Yeah, that's a fascinating, good question. I guess, I guess the thing that's still-- The data that I still turn to even if these numbers are still like a stasis or equal is like, yo, men are still committing suicide and the suicide rates among men are far more than they are of women. And so, there must be a correlation or something missing within that correlation. It's not the loneliness factor, but there's something else that is driving the death rate up that makes that loneliness feel more pronounced, I think.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah I think it is indeed clear that the suicide rates for men are still through the roof. But Kim did have some insight to share on here that might help us out too.
Kim Parker: We asked people, if you, If you needed emotional support, where would you turn? How likely would you be to turn to all these different sources? And [00:09:00] there, we saw for both men and women there, if they had a spouse or partner, that was the number one person; 74 percent of both men and women who had a spouse or partner said that's where they'd go for emotional support. But then when we went to other types of relationship beyond partner or spouse, women were more likely than men to say that they'd turn to their mother, to a friend, to another family member other than a parent or spouse or partner, and also to a mental health professional, which I thought was interesting.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Okay, so what do you hear there?
Remoy Philip: Yeah, I think it's kind of related to that. It must be related. That's the missing correlation is like that men, at least by their findings, are not seeking or don't have the tools or are equipped or empowered to like ask for support like women do. Women are more empowered to do that and therefore the loneliness may feel the same but that there's more support for women and women are more capable and able to seek support as compared to men.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah. And why do you think that is?
Remoy Philip: [00:10:00] You know, I mean, it's always what it's going to boil down to. It's like how we're socialized. That's easy to say. But like the shows, the characters, the stuff that we see, the male figures in our lives are be stoic and we do it by ourselves. And we're tough and we're American men.
No?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Am I talking to her more as a 21 year old? Did you pop your collar when you were 21? Tell everybody the truth. I know you did.
Remoy Philip: I wore two polos at the same time and they were both popped collars. Come on.!
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Oh, amazing.
Remoy Philip: Double pop that collar.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Amazing. It's Remoy the Litterati Doy with the best of America-- americana you've ever heard. And I'm so here for it.
Remoy Philip: Ehh. I don't know about the best. The worst, maybe? Sure.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Okay, but on a serious tip, though, like, did you experience that personally? Like, of course, I know I'm talking to Mr. Stoic here in some ways, but you know? It's worth asking.
Remoy Philip: You don't know me. No, you know, I've gotten much better at I have honestly, I've like-- Every [00:11:00] day, I think about like how fucking amazing and grateful I am for all the people I have in my life, across all the genders and ages, and I talk to people all day every day, and feel so supported, even therapy has been such an incredible resource, but still. Still. Even me and therapist Claire were talking about this last week, I have challenges of like literally asking for help, and/or I can crack jokes, and I can talk about movies, and PV and girls with friends. That's no problem. But like, when it comes to asking for help or reaching out for like when I need support, it's still a challenge.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: That's real life. And actually, this took me back, like, all the way back to one of the first MASKulinity episodes ever with Yuval Moses. This is like season one. I think he was episode two or three. Like, yeah, way, way back. So for the OG listeners, you may remember this interview talking about men as victims of violent crime. Remoy, I'm sure you remember this.
Remoy Philip: Oh, yeah. I mean, it was-- Content was good. If the [00:12:00] audio may have been dogsh-- Curse word, but you know, we were learning back then.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: I know. Shout-out to Brooklyn Public Library where we used to record our podcast. It's crazy. But yeah, Yuval said something about trauma that I think may also apply to loneliness, which was that it's not that the trauma happened necessarily. Of course, that's awful, but it's really whether it was dealt with and how it was dealt with that stays with us, right, that determines kind of like the course of our life. And I think that that's what's happening here, right? Like when it's time for men to reach out for emotional support, when they're dealing with that distress, they're letting less people support them.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. When you put it like that, like it's really-- I'm like thinking about myself in this and it's just really kind of sad. Like, when I feel sad, it's sad that I am not in a culture that has better supported me to, like, get support. And I don't feel-- I feel so scared to ask for support, or overwhelmed, or I [00:13:00] don't want to upset people, or I don't want to look less masculine. Huh, that's interesting. But, like, okay, are they casting a narrower net for emotional support, I think? But are they actually reaching out less?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: That's a really good question, and the report does address that.
Kim Parker: Men and women are about equally likely to say they have close friends. And women are a little more likely to say they have one close friend, and men are a little more likely to say that they have more than one close friend. But when you, when you put them all together, men and women are equally likely to say that they have at least one close friend. So we didn't see a big deficit there. But where we did see differences were in the frequency with which they are in touch with each other, which, you know, that could be for just [00:14:00] hanging out, having fun, but it could also get into the emotional support space as well.
Remoy Philip: Okay, so it's interesting, like, the number of close friends are relatively the same, but it is true that men just don't reach out as much as women do. Is that right?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, men are reaching out less often and to less people. And really, that's the mask, right? That's that mask with a hard K.
Remoy Philip: Okay, I hear you, but more words, please.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well, it's the premise of this whole podcast. Like, men respond to emotional distress differently. Their response is less external than women's due to this binary socialization that tells them to internalize.
Remoy Philip: I'm about to get a little mad. Like when you said men respond to emotional distress differently, you should put the binary socialization first because we've been socialized to believe that we should respond to emotions differently or distresses or pain or whatever. But yeah, whatever. All right.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: So as you mentioned, Kim Parker was coauthor of the Pew report on Americans' opinions on men and masculinity. So I had [00:15:00] to ask her what correlation she saw between the two reports with regards to this question, like, do overall perceptions of men and masculinity impact men's ability to reach out?
Remoy Philip: I don't know what that means in this context. Help me out.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well, so, you know, you remember in the other report, right? It was like, you know generally like the majority of Americans came away saying that there's not enough value being placed on men who are caring, open with their emotions, soft spoken. And there was a fourth one. Yeah. So like, There's not enough value there, right? We agree on that, but then it's like, and then of course, and on the flip side of that, the whole risk taking thing was too valued, but then it's like, okay, knowing that perception, is that why men are not reaching out?
Remoy Philip: Oh, okay. That's a good question. What did you find out?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Well, I think the-- I feel like I know the answer to that, but here's the statistical backing from Kim.
Kim Parker: There's one sort of interesting through line that we found, and that was, when we asked [00:16:00] people about certain traits that men may or may not have, and to what extent society values those traits in men.
And one of the big findings there was that 60 percent of Americans think that society doesn't place enough value on men who are open about their emotions. So that kind of suggested that there's an awareness or a feeling on the part of most Americans that we're just not lifting up men who do this, you know, it, we're not placing a lot of value on it.
It doesn't tie directly to these findings, but I think it's an interesting connection because if men are not as likely to say that they tap into all these sources of support, maybe it's because they don't feel like they're really valued if they're open about their emotions. So maybe they kind of keep them under wraps.
Remoy Philip: Okay, interesting. So it's like Americans do you want better models for men being open about their emotions, like we [00:17:00] want that. Or maybe it's like we all should be valuing that men do this more, right?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yes! Yeah, essentially.
Remoy Philip: But on the con, on the other side, there are also traits that society places too much value on, right?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Exactly. And she continues on with that.
Kim Parker: We found that people think society places too much value on men who are physically strong, who are risk takers, who are assertive. So yeah, it was interesting. We kind of tried to come up with a mix of traits that were-- many people might view as feminine versus masculine and, and what we saw was the public really kind of expressing that, hey, maybe we should place more value on these things and then maybe everyone would feel a little bit better, you know, or be able to express themselves.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, so what struck me here is that while people maybe may overwhelmingly know that, it doesn't mean that they'll act on it, right? Like, I mean, we talked with Juliana right [00:18:00] before the election and the report gave me hope that a woman potentially could be elected president based on this traits conversation, right? Like, I think there was even a section in the report that was talking about like leadership qualities should embody-- Or leaders should embody more of the traits that are less traditional to men, more traditional to women in terms of like the caring, the listening, kind of like the, the circular leadership,
if you will. But we're still getting ready to watch like Trump's inauguration today.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. And we, we've unpacked whether it was in that episode or the follow-up episodes, like it's the inaugurat-- or the election was complicated. But one thing we saw was like that the internet plays a role and, like, social media plays a role, especially when it comes to men, I think.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, I mean, there was one determining factor where certain populations were lonelier than others, like, significantly. Do you want to guess what that is?
Remoy Philip: Well, I would, I would have thought it's men, but obviously that we've covered that. So I have no [00:19:00] idea.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: All right. Let's take a listen.
Kim Parker: We found a bigger divide by age than by gender. And kind of interestingly, it's the young people who are much more likely than older people to say that they often feel lonely. And here, by younger and older, I'm talking about under 50 and 50 plus, because we looked within the under 50 group. We thought maybe 18 to 29 year olds would be different from 30 to 49 year olds, but they really weren't. So that whole sort of group of people under 50 are more likely to say they often feel lonely than older people.
Remoy Philip: Oh, okay, so it's like young people. And I'm assuming this actually probably is connected to what I said earlier about like the social media internet thing but Did Pew track, like, what caused the loneliness for younger folks? Like, is that in the report?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Not in this one, but she did have some insight from other sources. She has reported on this before.
Kim Parker: I was looking back at some previous research we had done [00:20:00] looking at time use data because we were, we were looking specifically at older adults and living arrangements and how much time older adults spend alone. And older adults, not surprisingly, spend so much more time alone than younger adults do. Yet they're less likely to say that they're lonely. So it's almost-- You know, it's more of an inner state, inner feeling than it is necessarily like how many people you're surrounded with. And then of course there's—we didn't get into it really in this report, but, but lots of other researchers and our colleagues on our internet team have—the impact of social media. So you might feel like you're constantly in contact with people, but that's not really feeding you or make, it might make you feel more lonely and isolated because you don't feel the same kind of connection that you might feel either in person or, or sometimes the things you're seeing are making you feel worse, you know? So that's a whole other element of this that, that needs tons more study.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, so kids are [00:21:00] online more, and alpha and beta, those gens or whatever, like, they're just, there's a big disconnect there, and it's creating like this weird ecosphere of what expectations are for connection and relationship, and, wow, it's wild.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: It is wild, because it's like-- One thing too that like, you know, I, that kind of came up for me when I was talking to Kim is that, you know, kids aren't just on social media to be social, right? They're not just on devices for like recreational purposes, like a lot of school is now conducted online, you know?
Remoy Philip: Good point.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, so it's like their, their lives just generally have more screens in them. That's like the normalcy of their lives lives inside the blue light in a lot of ways. And so I think, you know, yes, social media, of course, plays a part. And but a lot, but just the digital age really does as well. And so to color in the lines a bit here, like younger generations are really struggling with human connection in general, right?
Like, I mean, let's not even talk about COVID. I mean, we already kind of covered that, but [00:22:00]especially boys, like, and again, apparently teens report being almost constantly on social media, and that's regardless of their gender, according to another Pew study. But boys not being socialized to like reach out and be social like girls and women are really puts them in a bad spot when it comes to that.
Remoy Philip: And this kind of ties back to like very first episode of this season. It's like that's where the Jordan Peterson or not Jordan Peterson, but the Andrew Tate's and Jordan Peterson's and other horrible actors like that can step in and, you know, connect with these boys and feed them really bad just messages and ideas about the world and horrible things and woof, woof, here we are today.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, I mean, it's like, it, it, it's rough because. You know, what I think about too is like you end up kind of thinking of other ways that boys can interact and then there's like other kind of traditional ways of doing that. Right? Like get yourself outside, play some [00:23:00] sports, do some other traditionally masculine things that will get you away from the screen, which like, yeah, like really to go back to Trevor's point who actually was on the interview with Juliana talking about how men don't have-- men and boys don't have an off ramp.
Like there's just such a habit. Yeah. And now we've created this whole new habit in the digital age, and they don't really have a way out. And it's like, it's not just men, right? Like, there's also a way that we've, like, other genders have all kind of gotten used to what masculinity is, the way that patriarchy functions, and like, we all have to kind of recode that.
It really goes back to that point of there's like perception and then there's reality and then there's like whatever people are willing to act on, which, you know, we'll see how it goes.
Remoy Philip: Word.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: All right. Well, good luck to us. Today is the day.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. So it's a big day. It's a big day for the world and America and it's a-- you know, it's a day for people who have the privilege and the skills and the tools and the ability at the moment to, like, [00:24:00] figure out how we respond.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yes. And I do want to say, like, I, you know, I've talked a lot about doing the work and all of these things, and it's, like, really, it's so important to, like, take care of yourself in this time as well, like, especially if you're, you know, not in a position to, like, spend a lot of money to, like, dedicate your time to do a lot of this, like, really, rest is resistance at this moment in time, and, like, the next four years are going to be dedicated to making a lot of us become worker bees and make money for, like, all these billionaires who are now in the government, so, like, sometimes the work is self-care, so let's just hopefully try to remember that. Take care of yourself.
Remoy Philip: Yeah. And let's also, you know, self-care can look like a lot of things. So, you know, as we've talked about in this episode, whether you're a man, woman, anywhere on the gender spectrum, like, asking for support can be self-care, taking a walk with a friend can be self-care, giving time for yourself, any time in the day to just get off a screen can be self-care, right? So, I [00:25:00] think we ourselves are gonna take care of some of that self-care, right?
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah actually, this is the last episode of Season 4.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, and it's been a really lovely, good one. Special one, actually.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yeah, it's been great, and, you know, we're gonna regroup, and we're gonna meet you in the next few months.
Remoy Philip: Yeah, yeah, perfect time. You got so much time. You should start today. Yesterday. Give us five stars. Five stars. Five stars. Five stars.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yes. Five stars. And honestly, please let us know what your favorite moments of the seasons were, right? Like, we had a lot of episodes. We talked to a lot of cool people. We really want to hear from you and really encourage you to write in be it anonymously, via the website, via via DMs. Holler at us.
Remoy Philip: I mean, feel free to, like, you know, clock, document your favorite Remoy joke, like what was your favorite? What made you-- brought you to tears? Maybe what made you chuckle five hours later? But in that meantime, we'll be hanging out. We're still around.
You'll continue to receive newsletters, more on a monthly basis. And you can get that by signing up at maskulinitypod.com.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Yes. [00:26:00] And we'll still be on social, of course, @maskulinitypod on Twitter, IG, and now we're on Mastodon. So, of course, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast so that you're ready for us when we come back.
And there might even be a special episode or two before season five. So.
Remoy Philip: Sweet.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Definitely do that.
Remoy Philip: Well, until then, it's your boy, Remoy George Philip THEE First.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: And I'm Samantha Nzessi-Kifle. Thank you so much for listening.
Remoy Philip: Peace.
Samantha Nzessi-Kifle: Tchau.